Top benchers make a statement in ES discussion
 

http://hwbot.org/hwbot.post.do?postId=1113

Top benchers make a statement in ES discussion
It has been going on for quite some time now, but still no one really knows how to solve the big issue regarding the super samples of Core i7 and Phenom-II technology seeded by Intel and AMD. In the Hwbot forums, different point of views have already been posted, more than a few opinions have been shared and a large set of arguments have been used to explain why results obtained with the so-called cherry samples should be allowed or not on Hwbot, or in any overclocking competition for that matter.

In any case, two nordic overclockers have made a strong statement by removing their results obtained with super Phenom II samples, given to them by AMD. Sampsa and Elmor are the two top overclockers who have explicitly asked users not to use their super samples to be used in Hwbot by removing multiple scores which cost them respectively 34 and 13 places in the overclockers league.

As the discussion is still going on about how the Hwbot team should be dealing with these results, I would like to call out again to the Intel and AMD representatives who are seeding these samples to step up and work together with Hwbot to resolve this problem. In any case, for those who want to ventilate their opinion or help to figure out a working solution for this problem, post here: http://hwbot.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3074.



......

Personally I am not using HWBOT any longer.

Tho I am very happy to see that these guys have done what they have and it’s a step in the right direction imo.

I do believe that HWBOT is at a turning point and hopefully they will decided what the final vision of what HWBOT should be after all this settles down. My hopes are that there will be a separate section that these chips can be uploaded to so as not to spoil the regular sections.

I believe this... ES chips have been around for a long time and have been considered fair game. ES chips have also been known for a long time they are property of Intel and cannot be sold. A black market developed as was over looked for a very long time. Large amounts of money were being transferred to people who received these chips free in many cases with these illegal sales. All the people who received ES chips from Intel knew that selling these chips were illegal and many forums like XS would not allow them to be sold there.

The Super Chips from AMD and Intel were chips that no one could get, besides the people who received them. They would simply own HWBOT with those chips that no one could compete against.

LHe and LN2 and other cooling methods are fair game imo, just like top notch rigs that cost a lot. If you have the money then go for it, but not with something that no one could get or get illegally.

A separate section for these should be used tho as I do believe that it is good to see what they can do with these chips that are only sponsored by Intel or AMD. These become a Pro user area or some other special name like that.

I would also like to see scoring sections broken down by cooling so that people who WC, Phase etc can compete against each other and not WC vs Cascade. I don’t think that this will be possible in the end tho.

We shall see how things shake out tho.

I know that none of my special chips will ever make it into HWBOT, only screens posted.

Good post Buck, agreed alot with what your saying here.
It seems there are a great many discrepencies in the bot,....some which nothing really can be done (like cooling), but a great many, which have been overlooked or ignored. The two I can't get past are the ES or unique components and the guys using servers at work...bs.

NBOC has decided that we will concentrate our efforts for the good of the team as opposed to the good of the individual,....it definately makes the bot an easier pill to swallow.

Good to hear Rom :thumbsup:

I would like to see HWBot implement a means of searching by cooling as well.

Rather than top 100 E8600 overclocks, what if I am limited to air, and just want to compare to Air coolers. Of course still having global top dog is important, no reason that extreme OCers should not get more boints for the time and money they spend to knock it out of the park. Would be nice to see a little love for us "standard" OC'ers is all.


Thanks for the post Bill. Hopefully HWBot does do something about htis. It is in their rules that you must own the hardware. If Intel/AMD retain "ownership" Of Es/Golden Samples, than by all means they should be prohibited from bionts, or at least given their own section.

They say they can't due to there is no way of proving what type of cooling they are using. But I think engineering samples shouldn't be allowed to be used. Only hardware made public should. If they should they should be in their own class.

Yeah I understand that, just a wish of mine :)

Meh all this is bullshit. You really think it'll stop anything? Nothing more than a bunch of crying in my opinion. The ONLY ES cpu's out right now that do what retail can't is PHII. RETAIL i7's are owning the benches.

Here's the deal. People should focus more on separating cooling methods than banning results. You think that intel or AMD can change the cpuid string to NOT say ES? Still a cherry, right? Then how can you tell if they bought it or not? Same thing with video cards. How many of the top ten spots for 3d benches have bought their own cards? What about their ram? I mean this shit cracks me up. People think just because they can see the ES in cpuz, thats the only hardware people are benching that hey don't own or has been hand selected.

Sorry guys, but even though I hate competing agaisnt sponsered overclockers, you can't stop this. There is too much money at stake for hte manufacturer

I disagree Chuch. Its really quite simple to fix. If a component is not available on the retail market, it has no place scoring boints. In regards to multi cpu platforms, simply divide them into a seperate class, end of arguement. I don't see an answer for the cooling debate though.

Rom, my point is this. So lets say that hwbot bans the use of ES cpu's. Now everybody says oooh....aaahhh the playing field is level now. No it isn't. Intel, AMD/ATI, and Nvidia rely on the results of their hardware to make money. They WILL still sponser people and WILL give them top notch gear. Did you not see the cpuz screenies from when K|ngp|n benched at AMD headquarters? None of those chips said ES. Luckily AMD, Vince, gomeler, and chew* were honest enough to admit these were handpicked retails. You won't always be so lucky.

Why would AMD or Intel not secretly hand out cpu's that are so leaky they can't make it to retail to someone. If they break a record, it boost their sales. I got alot to say about this and not enough time to type it. Will devulge laterz....

bingo, and well said. i have an i7 975 ES i have posted results with, it is a real....errr....gem, yeah, that's it :). it must be, it's an ES. if anyone wants it i will trade you for a sealed inbox W3540, hell, i would take my chances of getting a better chip from a 920 :D

this is next to impossible. take the guys benching on "air" in -40C ambients. i can use water cooling but run that water at -30C. as for actually determining what cooling guys are running, impossible. you want to open the door to further rule breaking, introduce cooling categories. there just isn't a feasible method for policing, implementing, or determining cooling categories.

as for the last part of your statement, one word...BrianY. top 10, not a single piece of sponsored hardware. nothing handed to him, nothing binned except by him personally...and he isn't a millionaire. works every day of his life just to get by and feed his family. complaining that you can't compete is bullshyt, it is an excuse, plain and simple.

i am not sponsored in any way either, i do reviews in order to facilitate my benching. and if you think by doing a review for a piece of hardware is having it handed to me, think again. 80 hours of work for a proper review is hardly free. having the thousands of dollars of equipment to facilitate a proper review is not free. the knowledge to write a proper review is not free. the knowledge needed to understand all aspects of a piece of hardware for a proper review is not handed to you.

instead of whining, i compete by using what i have at my disposal. my skill set, my other hobbies, my knowledge to write reviews, to obtain hardware, and to bench that hardware. it is much easier to whine than it is to do something about it. you don't have to do it my way, everyone has their own methods, but just do it...don't complain.

I don't think it's so much of a level playing field issue with ES to me.

It's the fact that they are illegal to sell and in fact cannot not be sold on many websites like XS. There is a NDA that goes along with Intel sending these chips out to manufactures and others and it has been know for a long time that it is illegal to sell them.

Buy allowing them to be used on HWBOT supports a black market of the sale of these chips.

I made a few posts on HWBOT about this then just left it alone as I will most likely do here, it's just not worth the internet battle to me about this so I can get a few points on HWBOT and put money into some ones pocket selling these chips illegally.

i understand what you are saying Bill, but my results with the 975ES are 100% legal. i obtained the chip from Intel, i am under NDA, and i haven't broken any aspects of NDA. in this case, allowing an ES is not facilitating the sale of ES.

with that said, i know my case is in the minority and not the majority. if you really want to stop the sale of illegal ES's, it isn't up to HWbot or XS or anyone else. it is Intel. if they were accountable for the samples they send out, it wouldn't be an issue. that is my take on and as you said, the discussion can go no where fast, and i do see your side...i just have a different angle i am trying to share with you, that's all.

None of this is going to stop me from benching though. Its what we got and what we have to deal with.

I think Chuchnit is correct in his logic here. When dealing with a corporation, little matters more than the bottom line, $$$$$$.

Sure corporations will tell you everything that their marketing research consultant tells them will give a "Good" Company Image. Product/Company "Image" effects sales. Corporate espionage occurs every second and agents get paid for obtaining special information. People have been busted for it countless times.

In this instance, the press generated by monster performing chips drives interest and sales. Its far too valuable for these companies to seed the market with buzz making ES or CHerry samples.

Reviewers are frequently slapped with NDA agreements before givin new "Cherry" hardware to publicise and review. These agreements dictate what information can be said about the product and what areas can be covered. I know this for a fact. As a small example, XXXXXXX, THE premiere boutique system builder on the web, sends out ES sample ridden hardware to reviewers + strict NDA agreement for ALL reviews. I found this out after spending the time befriending a certain employee. At the time, I was curious as to why the load temperature mistakely shown in one fo the reviewers screenshot exceeded Intel's spec's for the same retail processor.

It's just not gonna be resolved by the big company's or little ones at that.

I'll still keep beating my drum on the hardware tho, why? , because I love competing.

It's all good Jodi :)
Keep on Benching ;)

I've asked this before but how do you obtain an ES chip? I know you have to apply for one or something like that but what are the qualifications to receive one?

The more I hear of this the more depressing it becomes. Perhaps if the greater public could read some of this material and the goings on at the bot they would have a better perspective of these manufacturer's...:deadhorse:

Thanks, but you are right. That's why I don't say much about the cooling thing. It's just one of those impossible things to control. I however don't see a problem if you bench super cooled air. It's still aircooling, right? Same with water. Supes made his own chiler. Anyone who wants can.


I don't whine, cry, or throw a temper tantrum. Why? Because it's useless. The truth of the matter is I have other priorities that take my money over hardware fundage. Most importantly I lack the time. Do I say it sucks competing against sponsered guys? YES I do!! Do I say it is unfair. NO!! It is what it is. Honeslty I'd love to be one of those guys one day.

Now the truth of the matter is this; you gotta have big money to play with the big boys. You say BrianY. isn't sponsered, works everyday, etc. I'm sure thats true, but he also has a ton of $$$$$ worth of hardware. Point blank, its a money game almost as much as talent. Once again am I crying, etc? No, I just wish I had the availablility of the hardware. I don't whine. I just beat the crap out of the hardware I have available :) I hope thats the spirit everyone has. If anything compete with your personal best scores.

Now to point out something you mentioned about how you get hardware. This is one of my issues with the bot. Not the benchers but their stupid rules. HARDWARE SHARING!! You just mentioned that you bench your review samples. You don't own them. As a matter of fact, that same video card could be sent to gomeler, madshrimps or another reviewer that has a hwbot team. IMHO that goes against the whole "idea" behind the hw sharing rule. The thing is that I don't have a problem with how you operate, but rather hwbot's rule.

Here's how I see it. I have uber clocking i7. I mean this cherry does 5.7ghz 32m stable. Fellow hwbot member wants to borrow it to bench 2d. According to hwbot rules, that chip can only be borrowed for 3d runs. Well I see it as if I'm stupid enough to let someone else borrow my uber CPU, and take the risk of them beating me, then that is my problem. But the "spirit" of the rule is to bench what you own. Well alot of great benchers don't own their hardware. Look at the picture Vince posted in his thread on xs. He must have had 20 video cards on the table mounted with pots. He didn't buy those, and I bet some of those he technically don't own; NDA etc. I don't have a problem with that, but I do think its a double standard. Understand that 95% of the time I am all for "sponsered guys"

Well said Chuchnit...:thumbsup:

Yep, there is no stopping it. They will just find a way to work around the system.


Something else I wanna say, but didn't want it to get buried in my gigantic post above:

People whine about ES this, sponsered that. "We need a level playing field" crap. Well all that hardware does you about ZERO good without tweaking knowledge, good overclocking skills, and pure determination. All you NBOC guys, look at yourselfs. You guys pull off some awesome boints. I mean that. Almost every member is in 300+ boint range. Just amazing. Is it because you guys have free shit? Nope, its because you guys gots da tweaking skills. Mad props to you guys.

Anyways, the moral of the story here is this. Hiding, withholding and keeping tweaks to yourself makes benching just as unfair as hardware sponserships if you wanna think about it that way. I for one don't give a crap. I see both sides. I try to share anything I find myself, but respect others wishes when they give me a tweak they don't want public.

Think about this for a sec. K|ngp|n comes to your house. He brings all his gear and sets you up the same rig that he has the 01 record with. All you gotta do is install your OS. He'll set the overclocks up just right for ya. Do you think you could match his score? I for one don't think I could....

I bought everything I have well except my F1EE. :confused4:

Will someone sponsor me, please. :clapping:

This is what we got. It ain't perfect but nothing in life is. You don't like it, go game or something!

Thank you Chuch and yes, our little crew does get after it from time to time. I will be going on another tear this weekend with my returned Classy...she has been gone too long for rma and I sorely missed her. I say let's break something! cool2

hahaha, now don't go have all the fun :rofl

I'm a little fuzzy on one aspect of this discussion. Who ownes these ES chips? From my understanding, the manufacturers retain ownership. Can someone clarify this for me? Thanks.

I get my 295 Friday. I'm wit ya. Lets break somethin!

I can send you some sata and ethernet cables Nip. :rofl

Hey! I still game too! :thumbsup:

Go to most HW forums and look for CPUs labelled "Extra Spicy" :)

I thought most of the e8600s on HWbot were ES's. But I will accept other's experience here, and guess they are retails?



The cooling thing interests me most, but the ES thing really makes a lot of sense for not allowing it, the more I read. It breaks HWBot rules. 'Nuff said.

How will that effect cherry review samples?

It won't.

As for sub ambient air and water cooling being a reason for not breaking up the cooling. I would rather compete with chilled air, than LN2 with my modded tuniq tower cooler. Plus pretty much everyone has access to an air conditioner if they want to duct some cold air in to their heatsink.

It would be great if we lived in a perfect world with honorable people competing in this sport. Unfortunately once money starts changing hands, morals seem to go out the window. I for the longest time thought benching a tweaked OS was "impure." Than again I still think that driving a car on a special track to determine it's performance is silly too. If it can not handle my local roads, what do I care?

this is 100% incorrect, i own everything i review. i receive brand spanking new retail samples and i keep them. i don't send them back. i don't send them on to another reviewer. i keep them and do with them as i please.

i refuse to be a part of a review process that is designed to provide a single sample with multiple reviews. it provides an inaccurate portrait for the general public of what a product is capable of, and i do not participate in this practice. ask Sascha. when he was working at Cell-Shock, this was their practice, does anyone recall me doing an OC Report on Cell-Shock memory...not because they didn't want me to.

i am done discussing any of these issues because my thoughts on the subjects involved are seen in my results. i simply don't talk, bytch, whine, or complain about HWBot rules. i simply employ the methods i have at my disposal to obtain hardware and follow the rules HWBot posts. i speak with my results i post, not my typing. i will however continue to read threads of this nature and correct wrong information as i have up until this point.

Very respectful actions :good: I stand corrected and will now eat crow :rofl

So is you keeping the samples something that comes with the territory, or do you have to purchase the product direct from the manufacturer? BTW, are you gonna be doing one of those killer OC reports on the new and improved dom gt's? :D

Why would you bytch when you are getting goodies for free? :shock:
You dont feel bad at all competing against people who have to buy their own stuff? :blink: I wouldnt want the rules to change either if I was in your position. And yes I am Def jealous.

I dont mind ES chips. Most wont OC as much as some retail anyway. And if they were banned, then you would just hear people complain about cherry chips. ES chips and retail chips are almost the same, they dont make one better then the other on purpose. Thats why they have to test through a bunch of them to find the cherries. Just cause its an ES means nothing.

My D0 is a fairly good chip. My E8500 is the best Ive seen. D0 got 4.8HT with water, and E8500 does 4.2Ghz with stock voltages. Neither are ES, but both are better then some ES chips.

The one thing I think should be in a different catagory is multi CPU systems. People going to work and running wprime on their companies $35k server is rediculous. If you dont buy it, or it does not belong to you, you should not be allowed to test it.

And for cooling, all they have to do is require realtemp be in the screen shot to determin if you are using air/water or extreme. Should seperate them by -+0C. Anything 0C or under is extreme, anything over goes in normal section.

Wow 10 viewing this thread at once now. Hot topic!

When Bill Gates adoption papers for me go through daddy will buy me anything I want. I'm gonna kick all yur arses...:taunt:

There are a ton of perspectives on all these issues and a ton more of opinions on them as well.
Lets try and look at it from all the angles before deciding if there is a right and wrong.
In the end, we're all overclocking enthusiasts, some with more resources than others, but we
all have a deep appreciation for the art of overclocking. Be it an ES chip, a free chip, a borrowed
chip, a rented chip or a handout chip, we all love overclocking it.

Lets be sure to have intelligent and respectful discussions on these highly controversial matters.

ES chips are not owned either though. IMO most ES chips given to the big guns are tested cherries. They then can post on forums how great they clock so everyone gets all excited to go hit the checkout button so they can do the same thing!

no way to validate what cooling is used, you could use phase then set the TJmax in realtemp to make it look like you are sitting at air temps

"First of all, these ES processors are meant for internal use by Intel engineers and their partners. They are not meant for sale at all. They are generally
used in Intel's quality control tests and remain Intel's property after the fact."

Quote taken from here, http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.a...tno=407&pgno=0

Is this statement true or false?

The way I see it, either the rules should change or hwbot should enforce them, neither of which, I foresee in the near future. The manufacturers wont change
what they do, there's too much money at stake. We, as participants, at hwbot have two choices. Either accept it or ignore it. Take your pick.

Personally, I don't care. I'm not in this for fame and glory. I'm here to aquire knowledge and skills, and for the personal satisfaction of learning and pushing myself and my hardware.

I agree with this, expecially for ram. Corsiar and OCZ sending out cherry sticks when the real ones are no where near as close.

I still think ES chips should be ok, just cause of the cherry retails out there. Just cause you have a cherry chip, doesnt mean it will work out best in the end. The rest of your system has to be up to par, and you have to know what you are doing to get it up there as well.

I see ES chips on ebay all the time, but chances are they are about the same as retail.

free?

your definition of free and mine must be completely different. working my ass off, sacrificing everything from work to life to love, giving up on numerous other hobbies i enjoy, sleeping next to nothing for weeks/months on end, not eating properly at times because i can't afford food, not buying new clothes, shoes, entertainment...is not free in my definition of the word.

i'm sorry but suggesting that i receive anything free is a joke and truly outlines your lack of knowledge as to what goes into a computer hardware review. i don't fault you for it, but please try to understand what you are implying with statements like that. don't get me wrong, i am not complaining about all those sacrifices, if i was, i simply wouldn't continue to do it. and yes i enjoy doing what i do, and why i make the sacrifices i do, but i sure as hell don't get anything free...anything.

heck, i got the F1EE today from Vince, it was "free"...or was it? ask anyone who put in time and effort to compete in the 01 low clock challenge if they had won the competition if the prize would have been free? something tells me that is a unanimous NO vote.

The bwnage memory sticks are rarely mentioned and there are some sweet performing non-retail sticks floating around, really impressive stuff.

Far as the guys who've shed blood, sweat, tears and meals to become recognized and recieve the perks that go along with it, I commend them. Theres only one way to get to the top around here and its to put in the time. Alot of these guys are beyond dedicated and at times I wish I had the amount of time needed to reach this precipice. Alas, I'm trin to hook people up with hardware to help them reach their goals.

SuperPI32m contest almost ready for launch :D

i believe that keeping the samples is the norm for the industry of small to mid range sites. there have been very few times over the course of my review career that i have been asked to return hardware. i have also only written for two sites so both would be considered small to mid-size, although i think HardwareCanucks is getting close to the bigger end of the mid-size spectrum.

i think it is understood reviewers do this on their own time for small sites and manufacturers understand the hardware is their compensation.

as for the new Dom GT's, as soon as i saw the thread here i fired out a PM to my director to see what we could do. i know Corsair was interested in sending one of TEC cooling units so hopefully i can get one of the new 2000 CL7's with it. now that i have a CPU that can clock memory to almost 1200MHz, i am not scared of those bad boy GT's anymore :D