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Phantom, Dual Wall Clear LN2 Evaporator - First Encounter
This is my first encounter with the Phantom, Clear Dual Wall LN2 Evaporator
The Phantom Made by www.LN2cooling.com Special thanks to: Aaron Schradin who was truly a pleasure to work with on this project. Simon Solotko from AMD for his help with this project also. Special thanks to Chew for the use of his TWKR. Chew is a top notch bencher, one of the best, and very nice, helpful guy ! One of the things that I really like about benching computers is the cooling aspect of each run. I have tried to stay on top of as many types of Extreme Cooling as I can, given the resources that I have. One question I remember hearing one time was “how does become a really good bencher”, something along those lines away. The answer was pretty simple, get the best cooling you can and the rest will follow with lots of hard work. I began using many methods of cooling but SS Phase really got my attention at first so off I went to find one of the best units I could at that time. After some time a SS Phase unit built by one of my favorite builders, Jin Park, was in my shop and I was soon benching away with that. It became very clear to me at that time that even though this SS Phase unit was very well built and could hold CPU’s at very good temps under high loads, aprox -51c unloaded and I have not gotten that unit below -39c under high loads, that it was just not cold enough for what I wanted to do. But I had the Phase/Cascade bug bad ! I then moved on to LN2 cooling as being able to get a Cascade was very hard to do. Yes this website XS has had a very bad influence on me LOL ! At this time, and now, LN2 pots made by K|ngP|n or Vince were the best we could get so I collected a few of them. The F1 and Tek’s filled my bench and were used on every bench run that I did. I also collected other pots made by others, MickMouse CPU Pot, Evaps and other SS Phase units. I love to collect these items as often I as I can :) The next problem was a Dewar to hold LN2 in for benching. This was also not an easy thing to find. Keeping a eye out on ebay and other places I finally found a Taylor Wharton LD50 with pressure top and this has served me well. Sometime later I had the chance to go to XS in Las Vegas for a very special event, the AMD LHe event where AMD CPU’s would be taken down to temps unheard of and benched at Extreme Conditions. At this event I saw several new pots being used, one was the early LHe pot built by Aaron Schradin with Simon Solotko. Another event later in Austin Texas by AMD again the video Xtreme Conditions was created and I had the first chance to see the Phantom LN2 Evaporator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR--2ivkFSQ&fmt=22 I saw this video and became very interested in this new tech for LN2 cooling. Getting in touch with Aaron Schradin and we soon had a new pot being made for me. Aaron was a pleasure to work with on this project, very friendly and I believe he wanted to make a pot like no other. It was a few weeks to get all this done and after many emails exchanges, ones like “It’s Shipped”, and “It’s in your town now !”, I finally had this monster of a LN2 pot in my hands. When I opened the box my eyes were like as wide open as they possibly could, I just went OMG when I held it for the first time. The pot that Aaron made for me is rather big for a LN2 pot at 15” tall. Here is some data on this Evaporator, taken from www.LN2cooling.com Careful materials selection is critical! Importance of Materials Selection • Why copper, and what type? – At normal operating temperatures, there is little noticeable difference in thermal conductivity values in various copper grades. – However, as temperatures decrease, conductivity of various grades increase at drastically different rates. • Conductivity of “pure” copper – Copper at 300K thermal conductivity is nearly 400 watts/m °C – Copper at 100K thermal conductivity is nearly 400 watts/m °C – Copper at 18K thermal conductivity is nearly 4000 watts/m °C – Copper at 10K thermal conductivity is nearly 2000 watts/m °C – Increase of a factor of nearly 10 times at the peak! • Conductivity comparison of other materials at low Kelvin values – Silver increases to 193 watts/cm °C from 4.5 watts/cm °C – Aluminum increases to 71.5 watts/cm °C from 3.0 watts/cm °C Interesting Temperatures for Simon’s Experiment • Wood alcohol (methanol) – freezes at -97.8° C (-144.0° F) – boils at 64.7° C (148.5°F) • Grain alcohol (ethanol) – freezes at -114.1° C (-173.4° F) -- Everclear Alcohol? Something 180+ Proof – boils at 78.5° C (173.3° F) • Liquors: – 24 proof liquor freezes at -6.7°C (20°F) – 64 proof liquor freezes at -23.33°C (-10°F) – 84 proof liquor freezes at -34.44°C (-30°F) • Isopropyl Alcohol – 90% isopropyl freezes around -90.0°C I prefer to not show pictures of the base or how it was machined, if you are interested in this please contact www.LN2cooling.com The base is rather complex and from what I understand took a fair amount of time to machine out. It is not simple holes drilled into a base of copper. It is made from 99.9% pure copper and weighs ~ (need to get this weighed and I will add it in here) So now that the Pot is here and ready to go I invited a few friends over for a benching party so they could see this wonderful pot in use also. They were Cpt. Planet – Jake, Punx – Shannon, and Nick from EVGA, Nordic Jedi from 411overkill and ocgmj from NBOC. As the rabid over clocking madmen headed straight from work on Friday and drove for 7 hours to get to my place which they did at about 1:00am Saturday morning and began setting up equipment right away, the session had started very early LOL ! Very sorry to ocgmj who arrived at noon that day and missed most of the benching session, very sorry about that :( A few of these guys had not benched on LN2 before so this would be there very first time, how fitting to have the Phantom here for that :) The Phantom was setup and benching started. I must add here that this was my first encounter with this pot and was very tried when we ran this test. I had assumed that the pot was ready to go and had forgotten the instructions on applying the Teflon Tape on the mating surfaces, yup I am a idiot ! Out here in Calif getting 190 proof alcohol is impossible so I ended up using 80 proof vodka. The test was started and soon found that we had leaks, and alcohol had leaked into the main chamber and would gel up and clog the base of the pot. That was unfortunate for this event but caused no serious problems. Now I am not sure if the effects we saw were because of the leak but we had rather strange results from this session. One of the effects that we noticed early on was how it pulled down temps. I would pour a good dose of LN2 into the pot and it would start to drop temps, but we reached a point where more LN2 being poured would actually warm up the pot. The best zone of LN2 we found was to keep the level of LN2 just down at the base. But filling up the pot to the top was ok for the first cool downs and made a really good show :) With a small dose of LN2 in the base it would make strange noises as the LN2 was moved about and being jetted around by the design of the base. As we started benching the leak had began to clog up the base with gelled alcohol and we saw pretty bad temp swings and was impossible to keep at a given temp. We ended up stopping as the whole column was starting to gel up pretty bad. I has installed the temp probe in the eraser next to the CPU heat spreader. I am not sure if it was reading correctly there as we only saw a max temp of -159c I think it was, maybe because of the stacking effect of LN2 in the chamber, I am not sure. Conclusion was that using 80 proof alcohol was a problem with how long you could run the pot before it started gelling up, higher proof = longer runs. I will have to try and find another liquid for this. The inner tube or LN2 chamber seems to stack up LN2 in the tube, mixing with gas and boiling, making it hard for the cooling effect of liquid LN2 to stay in the base. Plus I also think that this pot is simply too tall, but usable. Bigger is better right ? well in this case it’s not really needed to be as tall :) This is a extremely well made and nice evaporator and has strong possibilities for future use and tuning for better effects, there are a few problems with it now as any new tech has but I think that this can be figured out and tuned for better effects. It makes a really nice show but with size of the one I had built, but using it with one person is rather hard. But this pot would make a great addition for any benching show and other events. Here are some pictures and video of its use. The video is rather simple and crude. I am not a video artist, yet anyway and we were pretty tired when this was taken early in the morning. But it gives you a idea of how it looks and the gelling problem we saw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLo7Dr_kR2U I will get the leaking problem fixed up for the next run. As with any new tech things evolve and change, I think this design has promise and I am sure it will improve with future units. Just like the very first LHe evaporators evolved I am sure this design will also. So take this as a first peak, or second anyway at some very exciting new tech that I am sure will become better with future models. We don’t really have any benching results from this run because of the problems I stated. Photos by Jake – Cpt. Planet and Lee – Nordicjedi So here we have some prepping up pictures. http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5568/1002474u.jpg http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4302/1002479.jpg http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2616/1002485p.jpg http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4383/1002487.jpg Getting it setup on the bench http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7769/dsc0031v.jpg http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8931/dsc0030ieg.jpg http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7907/dsc0019s.jpg And the first pours start http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5201/1002530v.jpg http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8523/1002531v.jpg http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8031/1002538y.jpg http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3334/1002533m.jpg Here we start seeing some of the alcohol start to gel up, this is the inside of the LN2 chamber were alcohol has been blasted up in the tube. http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9742/1002567.jpg And here its gelling up in the alcohol chamber http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/2661/1002572.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6998/1002575k.jpg And what it looked like in the base chamber when we finished, it was pretty clogged up. http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3669/1002578.jpg And the crazy bunch of rabid benchers who were dead tired but continued to bench away for 18 hours LOL ! Left to right – Me, Nick, Jake – Cpt. Planet, Shannon – Punx and ocgmj – George http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/2351/1002676.jpg |
that pot is sick, and i think with the new setup on it... vs the show tube I think will really perform well.
The only issue is gonna be the volume of taht unit.... were talking over a possible 2-3 litres if not more to fill it.... then again could you imagine the twkr running with that much LN2 stacked on it :D |
This is some serious write up there! Keep up the good work. Next time I'll take my time and take a flight form NY to bench with you guys! :thumbsup: BTW: This thing is a monster! :eek:
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yah more notice, next time. With a month or two notice I could arrange to hop spirit airline or some such for $100 one way :)
As for the performance. Not an extreme cooler, and not a smart guy by anymeans... but with alcohol freezing at so low a temp would not a run to wally world for some $1 pints of 91% been better than vodka? I do not know your area, I assume it is as urban as New Jersey/Pennsylvania. Only WalMart I have seen that was not 24 hours was in West Virginny. Wicked awesome write up Bill and snaps to everyone that made it to the party. So jealous would love to have seen that thing in action. Looks intense. I noticed no one else has asked yet... I did not clcik the link... how much does a 15" acrylic penis cost these days? lol (I know I would take that to a bar to impress girls :) ) EDIT: wow I am slow. Just noticed you were running that on the Dimas bench table. That yours or someone bring it? Caught the thread in members rig forum about that. Uber throw back slick ass stuff man. Top notch dropping that phantom on a Dimas :) |
neuro.... problem is is that incalifornia they are very wierd about alcohol and best percentage alcohol we could muster was that....
nothing else we could get |
Was just telling Bill... dunno if it works on everything... but when i have warm beer that needs a chilling. A cup of water a few tsps of salt and a dozen ice cubes works great.
The salt lets the water get colder that 32F. I forget the exact number i think the ocean freezes at 15F not a big difference but might be enough to get a few more degrees? (and the ocean is not really salty anyway) Maybe next time use a Margarita mix? lol (salt the rim baby!) EDIT: State Laws on Alcohol are weird. The Blue Laws in PA, no liquor sales on Sunday, no sales after 6 pm other days, bars close at 2 AM. WV has Blue Laws too, but than you can get beer and wine at the gas station or Grocery Store till 2 AM 6 days a week, till midnight on Sunday. New Jersey has the same rules as WV for times, but you have to go to a bar or distributor to get it. |
video uploaded
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awesome video bill..... taht pot is a beast
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Very interesting info Buckeye:)
You guys had great time there as I can see! Keep O/Cing it:D |
That thing is even huger than I thought. Did I miss it or what is the tubing made of?
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Nice t-shirt George :good: NBOC Pimpage!
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Bill, super write-up buddy. So forgive me if I missed it, but do you also have the non-show tube to go on this too, or are you just gonna fix your leak? Too bad you don't live in the south. You could just get some 190 proof corn whiskey (moonshine) hehe. I remember when I was in So. Cal a few years ago we bought some everclear. It wasn't as strong as here (180 proof). I think it was like 150 proof, but still alot stronger than 80. |
Nice Vid. -155 :o must have been fun even with all the trouble
If Bill is going to be posting more vids, he needs a Overclockaholics shirt :) |
Had a good time. :thumbsup: Thanks again Bill for the invite. :Hi:
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looks like you guys had fun, just knew that OCamigo would be sportin NBOC threads......super kewl pot!
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Wow very cool man!
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nice! way to represent George :)
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Embedded the vid in first post for yah buckeye.
Where was teh temp probe at? |
GOD I get my rocks off every time I see that pot!
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Temp probe was not in that great of a spot. I had it in the eraser right next to the heat spreader. Going to strap it on the pot next time.
The plan is I am now having a second set of tubes made up at 8" long. This is a more funuctional size we believe. I will keep the 15" set as its just to freakking cool to watch. So with two sizes and the ability to pull out the inner tubes I can run this setup many different ways. I thought about having the 15" tubes cut down but just could not do it, so getting a shorter set. |
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I better be invited to the next run!!! :good: |
So do we have screenies? I saw on xs where Jake posted a 64xx valid shot. Does he have the hdd with all the results?
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yes we have some, I will see about getting some posted up here.
One of the things I learned with this session was to have a goal to bench for, the purpose of the benching session. For this session it was all about the Phantom. But a second goal should have been made, instead of just bench for the sake of benching. We used up a lot of time and resorces for this event and I would have liked to see results from all that. It was ok tho in the end, just better planning on my end for the next time. I mean not only did they drive a long ways to get here, but it was costly on my end also. We should have gotten some form of results from this. |
Hey, did you guys have fun? That's all that matters. I know you spent alot of money for this, but you live, learn and bench some more by yourself with the LD50 :D How much pre-testing did you have time to do with the TWKR?
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I had several weeks on the TWKR with Cascade. AMD setups took me awhile to get used to. I am so used to Classified and Core I7 I was lost for awhile but got things going pretty good. Hit 5.7ghz with it.
I need to do a post on that also |
AMD (K10) is all about getting your whole system to support the CPU, I imagine it is so much more so on extreme cooling. Chew made mention of memory having a lot to do with getting high OCs on AMD. I still have not played with the DQS yet, (I am slow in learing anyway) but just adjusting skew, made a HUGE difference for me in getting RAM fast and tight, and sprung me an extra 100MHz top OC too boot.
Probably has lot to do with the PhenTwos really taking off with DDR3, which I honestly did not expect AT ALL. |
Interesting pot! It doesnt need insulation because of the dual chamber? How big is the actual copper base?
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Ah, theres the new sig, :D
Performance Under Ridiculous Extremes |
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I like the acronym! |
Insane stuf.....Wow and again WOW.That's all the words than can come out of my mouth.:D :D
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1 Attachment(s)
Bill when is the next run? After the 8" tube is done?
Everclear Grain Alcohol 190@ 750ml will this work instead of vodka? Attachment 686 |
wow @ everclear :taunt:
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That Everclear is just the thing I am looking for. I have to go hunt some of that down but I don't think I will have any luck :( The differance between the 80 proof stuff I used and the 190 proof everclear is how long you can run the pot before it starts gelling up. They had about 4 hour runs with everclear. But like I said we have some other ideas that might work pretty well, but it will take me awhile to get that done. Again the Pot can be run with the inner tube and without it. Without it I will have to insulate the tube with armaflex. Neat idea I have for this is to use the first layer of armaflex so the sticky side on the tape is facing out, not stuck to the tube. Then put a second layer on top of that so its sticky side stick's to the sticky side of the first LOL. This will create a tube of armaflex that can slide off and on. |
Getting ready for another round of testing :Dizzy::eek:
:rofl http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8935/img1251k.jpg http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3139/img1250k.jpg |
HOLY #$%^& :thumbsup:
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wow... how do i get there again? :blink:
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you guys don't have Everclear out in CA in the liquor store? You should.
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HAHA Actually the 160L is empty but I thought it would be a good picture to drive Dinos crazy :rofl
The other is a 230L and I have a full 50L, so 280L total ready to rock. I have a defuser on the filling hose now and makes filling up the 50L sooooo much easyer :) I will be out looking for Everclear |
Nice pics, Buckeye!
They are driving me crazy, so I can imagine what dinos is going through.:clapping::rofl |
Just googled it for yah. Looks like you are limited to 151.
BevMo at 6393 N. Pacific Avenue Stockton, CA 95207 209.478.5718 Should carry it, best to call ahead though. If not you can order it from their site for 15.99 per 750mL If they do not have that they may carry Bacardi 151 as well. Think 91% Isopropyl would be ALOT cheaper though. Check Wal-Mart. EDIT: Yup looks like they carry Bacardi 151 as well but it is 33 bucks a iter. |
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